AS WE SPEAK at Sundance
As We Speak is the directorial feature debut from J.M Harper. Harper is an accomplished editor, working on projects such as Jeen-Yuhs: A Kanye West Trilogy. He has been honing his craft for years and knew that this project, rooted in the book Rap on Trial, was the right moment for him to step into the spotlight. The film follows Kemba, a real-life rapper from the Bronx, as he dives into the weaponization of rap lyrics against black rappers in the criminal justice system.
I had the pleasure of chatting with J.M Harper, Kemba, Rockie Fresh, and producer Sam Widdoes on the press line before the premiere at Sundance 2024 as part of the U.S. Documentary Competition.
Adam Manery
(to Sam Widdoes) This film is covering a pretty important topic, which is something that has been talked about in the media. There are a couple other projects also exploring this, but what makes J.M’s film different?
Sam Widdoes
It’s a great question. We’ve been working with Erik Nielson for seven years to get this made. There’s a lot of different issues involved in the broader issue of “rap on trial”, and we knew that the best way to tackle it was not to focus on one case, not to focus on one aspect, but to find the most creative approach that weaves the narratives together. That tells the story of not just what’s happening today, but tell the story of 400 years of black music, black art, and this was J.M’s approach. He knew Kemba and he knew that we had this character, this artist who could lead us through the journey, and this took it to a level beyond what I could have imagined from just relying on a factual examination. He understood that there’s an artists perspective we can lead with throughout the journey that will connect with audiences in a way that I never imagined it could. It’s been pretty special.
I made [this film] like a song – J.M Harper
AM
(to J.M Harper) So we understand that this film is taking a bit of a different approach compared to other documentaries. How would you describe it?
J.M Harper
I made this film not necessarily like a traditional film – I made it like a song. So it’s not an academic film in the traditional sense. It’s not just talking heads and archival footage. It’s a film that’s made from the artist’s point-of-view, from the artist’s perspective, from Kemba’s perspective specifically. So it’s very different just by nature. We go back in time to the 1600’s to tell the story of hip-hop. So as you can imagine, we’re talking a different view in order to tell a holistic story of how we got to where we are now.
AM
You mentioned that this film explores issues from Kemba’s perspective. He has been in this game for a long time, but he’s not a household name. What do you think the world should know about Kemba?
J.M Harper
We realized during the making of the film that it’s all the rappers who aren’t household names yet who have the biggest targets on their backs and are the most vulnerable. They are the 700+ cases that we look at in the documentary of rap artists who have had their lyrics used against them in order to incarcerate them. There are thousands or perhaps even tens of thousands more whose cases aren’t recorded. Kemba is born and raised in the Bronx. He understands the music from its roots and he’s the perfect vessel for the film. Also, he’s a James Baldwin to me. He’s a translator. He can speak to everyone, and I think the film really proves that.
Kemba’s such a special thinker… it puts the film in a new place – Sam Widdoes
AM
(to Sam Widdoes) J.M. spoke on Kemba pretty beautifully. To you, what should the world know about Kemba the artist?
Sam Widdoes
Oh, my gosh. He’s a special person that I’m so excited for people to know about him who might not have known about him before. One of the big things about this issue is that the vast majority of people who are impacted by this are artists who don’t have a huge record label behind them, who don’t have the resources to put out a huge legal defense, kind of like J.M. had mentioned. So to have an artist who has some credibility, who has put some albums out, who has gotten a lot of respect from the rap community, but who isn’t widely known, is exactly who we need to have as the lead character. He can say “Hey, I’m the one who is actually impacted by this”. Because he’s such a special thinker and has a great perspective on the potential impact for him and other artists, it just puts the film in a new place.
AM
(to Rockie Fresh) Like Kemba, you’re an artist yourself, and you also have the potential to have your own lyrics turned against you. When you were approached to be in a project exploring this issue, was it an immediate yes, or how did that come to be?
Rockie Fresh
It was a definite, immediate yes. I really like wha the film stands for, but also I have to give credit to the director, Jason, who’s a huge friend of mine – a big supporter of my music from day one. This is the first movie I’ve been in, but when he reached out it just made all the sense in the world. I love what the movie is about, but also the director, so it was a great combination.
Kemba’s a James Baldwin to me. He’s a translator.
AM
What was it like working with J.M?
Rockie Fresh
Man… it was so smooth and so effortless. I mean, just the way he was on set made it so easy to be myself. There really wasn’t no issues at all. Like I said, I’ve known him for a while, so it was just super easy, Watching him grow and get to this point and for us to experience this together. This is my first time being at Sundance, and to be here as part of this movie that he’s doing… it’s an honour.
AM
(To Kemba) What about you? Were you already connected to this project from the start, or how did it grow into what it became?
Kemba
This was a seven year long process before I was introduced. Sam Widdoes and Eric Nielson were having conversations about the book
Rap on Trial and how to get that on camera. Then it really started kicking up when J.M got involved. Me and Jason worked on this short documentary piece called “We the Culture” and when we worked together it was such a good experience, good chemistry, and he was already sure we’d work together again. Maybe a year later he reached out to me about this and as soon as he told me, I was on board.
The beauty of hip-hop is that it can use fiction to tell truth – J.M Harper
AM
It seems like everyone loved working with J.M. What was your experience?
Kemba
It was such a cool process. He has a vision of how he wants things to be, and sometimes he’ll let you in on it, sometimes he wont. You just have to trust it. But, he’s also willing to get the opinions and ideas of the people around him while not letting it take him off course. So it was super collaborative. I was passionate about wanting this to be right and, in my opinion, I got to let it be known. And so it might’ve been annoying at some points, but he was gracious about it and we had a lot of conversations and talks throughout.
AM
(to J.M) Something you’ve talked about publicly is this blending between fact and fiction, right? We see it with artists, we see it with lyrics, and we see it with this film. How did you go about incorporating that idea into this film?
J.M Harper
That’s a great question. I think viewers will be challenged when they have to answer that question themselves. When it comes to the music, it’s a mixture of dreams, and fantasies, and memories. Sometimes it seems like an impossible concoction of poetry. It’s certainly impossible to tell what’s truth and what’s fiction. The beauty of hip-hop is that it can use fiction to tell truth. So when that enters the courtroom and someone says “this is just autobiography”, it’s a huge mischaracterization of music. I think when people watch this film that will be made more obvious, and the issues we’re facing now will be really, really clear in our minds.
AM
(to Kemba) So Kemba, since this film explores the idea of fact vs. fiction, I have to ask. When we see “Kemba” on screen, is that Kemba?
Kemba
It was definitely me. But… it was different.
Telling truth through fiction… that’s just art.
Check out more Sundance coverage: here
Or watch a full review of the film:
